The big news at the Guerra de Titanes press conference did not have anything directly to do with any of the matches on this show, but the main event of the Perros del Mal show. Toscano appeared, announcing he was the mystery man at this weekend’s show, and would also be appearing in AAA. LA Park complained about Octagon being his second at Guerra de Titanes at the press conference, so perhaps Toscano or Texano could end up taking the spot. (There are bigger issues here, but the only other notes AAA posted from the press conference was Konnan and Casandro will be the seconds in the Sexi Star vs Pimpinela match.)
Toscano, like Texano, is officially a Perros del Mal wrestler. Signing with Perros del Mal means you’re going to work for AAA when they want you, but you’ll also be working the Perros del Mal shows regularly and taking outside bookings. It’s a distinction that means something to the luchadors, though not a very important to what fans will see as long as Perros del Mal and AAA continue to work together. Toscano leaving CMLL had been talked about for a long time. There was a very solid rumor he was the intended surprise luchador on the AAA tapings @ Naucalpan in June, but had backed out at the last second. Toscano was intended to do something with Elegido then (either team or feud) and it’s possible AAA go that direction again if AAA can find where they put Elegido.
Toscano’s departure is the least significant to CMLL of the recent run. He was a name who’d been built up enough to still matter a bit when he lost his hair (like with Naito in 2009), but not a person the promotion had any interest in years. A slow decline is easier to handle when business is good. It’s not, and it makes sense for Toscano to try something different. Toscano had been one of the names bandied about as the surprise Perros del Mal wrestler this weekend, brought on by those past rumors and not being around CMLL much the last month. Toscano was scheduled to be back in action this upcoming week, going Guadalajara-Puebla-Guadalajara from Sunday on. It’s very possible he still will be going to those shows, just like Garza did, though whatever insta-feud they were doing with him in Puebla is surely done.
Toscano joining the Perros del Mal fills out the Perros del Mal card this weekend, but it should not be taken as the end of the jumping. LA Park isn’t alone in comparing CMLL to a sinking ships, and there’s a lot more rats looking to get off in time. CMLL is a company full of disillusioned luchadors and management who doesn’t feel they need any of them to survive. It’s not clear to me if they believe this is some natural cycle of the business which will resolve on it’s own, or if they simply do not care about the state of things, but it is clear the people in charge are unconcerned with the departures and the fan turnout.
The Wrestling Observer Newsletter adds to this, as they had a ton of lucha libre news this week. Of special note to this story was a meeting CMLL management had with the luchadors prior to last Friday’s show, laying down the law. The luchadors were told that anyone who wanted out right now were free to leave, even if they were under contract, because CMLL didn’t want unhappy people. There was also a new directive to be more serious in matches, trying to be more ‘real’ to distance themselves from the other promotions. The newsletter also mentions Averno & Babe Richard both asking why the company doesn’t do more long term storylines instead of quick feuds, and were told CMLL is a promotion that does quick feuds and long storylines are too fake-showy. (These kind of CMLL meetings appear to be a staple, though Mistico isn’t around to rant about it this year.)
Most of the younger wrestlers did not agree with CMLL’s new directive. I do not believe it it a good idea. More importantly, I’m not sure the people in charge totally buy that it’s a good idea, because they’ve been doing the opposite with the storylines most important to them. Blue Panther vs the Casas brothers is a long term storyline. Ultimo Guerrero vs Atlantis is a long term storyline. Felino vs Rey Bucanero is a long term storyline based on a show that’s just setting up long term storylines (and a show that’s far less than serious.) Ultimo Guerrero & Dragon Rojo Jr. chasing the all time record for most title defenses is definitely a long term storyline that’s near and dear the hears to whoever’s booking it. And just hours after talking about how serious and real everything needed to be, the finish of the fourth match of Friday’s show was Tirantes refusing to count for the tecnicos and helping the Invasors win. It seems like these directives and limitations don’t quite apply to the people who work with the programming committee or are allied with those who do, but maybe I’m missing something. It’s much harder to find the same pattern with people more on their own; those long term storylines seem to fade away.
When Mistico left and CMLL was initially talking about getting a new Mistico, Panico made a point of saying CMLL would go thru the various affiliated training centers, and pick out a new Mistico from the trainees. That hasn’t exactly happened, but CMLL has never had more confidence in their ability to create new stars out of fresh clay then they do in 2011. There’s ample amount of evidence this may not actually be the case (“Generacion 2011”), but CMLL is arrogantly sticking to that belief that just putting the stamp of CMLL on someone makes them important to the fans. They don’t need anything except the name and the building, and no one can take it away from them. That belief is what is motivating all of their decisions – anyone can go because anyone can be replaced by the next kid out of the school, and anyone who leaves is immediately diminished by not being CMLL anymore. The downturn in business has only hardened this view, as evident by their statements this past week. The big shakeups (or returns) people ask about are even less likely to come as long as this management crew stays in power. That means people who are going to keep looking for other places to work and taking those jumps, and hurrying to make those jumps while there are still spots. It may be AAA/Perros, it may be WWE, but people will be going and it will be important people.
Back to Toscano. In an ideal world – or at least an ideal Mexico – the economy and general situation improves in 2012, there can be more shows run around the country, AAA can run more places and bigger shows farther away from Mexico City. Maybe the same for Perros del Mal, or maybe they’ll be able to run the Toluca’s and Ecatpec’s more if AAA doesn’t. There must be more AAA/Perros shows next year to keep everyone employed happy, but there can be if the situation improves. That’s the hope behind these moves, there’s more reason for hope there than in Arena Mexico. There’s reasons to believe this might be a too optimistic outcome – the WON reports the recent last minute cancellation of AAA’s San Luis Potosi taping was due to fear of cartel-related violence – but the people involved and definitely the people making this jump feels this is a much better gamble than CMLL turning around. That’s where the luchadors believe CMLL is at the moment.
(But maybe they’ll still get good matches? That would be good. You know, title matches that go 2 minutes, 2 minutes, and 12 minutes don’t seem that serious…)
Discover more from luchablog
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Toscano and the others take a high risk. The CMLL management sucks and their shows don’t draw anymore, but AAA shows also don’t draw these days. The arena at the Toluca taping was half empty, and the Pachuca taping in November looked like there were only a few hundred fans. The Perros del Mal shows usually don’t draw as well. The Arena Mexico crowds are small but they still look bigger than the AAA crowds (except for the AAA ppvs). Getting away from the moronic CMLL bookers seems to be a bigger advantage than the risk of vanishing into the world of shows with a few hundred fans like Hijo del Santo and others.
And by the way, Mortiz and Semental are a good example that jumps to AAA aren’t inevitably good for the workers. Either they are injured since four months, or AAA already gave up on them.
I would love to c these guys invade tna, LAX really needs the rub
@ringo mortiz and semental havent appeared anywhere in the last few months so i doubt it has anything to do with AAA giving up on them they are probably injured as for AAA crowds being smaller than CMLL crowds i dont think the figures wil back that up lol
@Ringo:
They were brought in as extras and I don’t think I ever remember hearing Mortiz and/or Semental were on TV. They were tagging with lower end Milicia members against unofficial Air Forcers so that kind of shows that they are in the same spot. Should they turn tecnico, then maybe they would be in a better position like Drago and Fenix.
I think the reason Toscano left was stagnation. Has Toscano done squat since returning to CMLL as a tecnico, no. He was left in fill in roles for main events on the smaller shows and never given a storyline. Add in money going down, he left. I think he could earn the same between Perros and AAA (if they select him to work shots) as he did in CMLL.
Mortiz/Semental went home due to family issues but will be back in 2012. (Source: WON)
Where are the biased CMLL fans to defend the men who run their promotion? Surely they’ve got something to say. Maybe not intelligent but certainly something.
It’s strange that certain people on here seem to want the death of CMLL and are getting hard-ons over the troubles their having at the moment.
I believe Cubsfan (on this blog), myself (on my blog), Nikita (on this blog and presumably his own?), Alfredo (on this blog and twitter) and maaaaaany others responding here have thrown out multiple answers to CMLL’s problems. More answers than any CMLL management have come up with. Not a single person has ever said they hope CMLL dies.
But keep living in your “everyone vs Us” imaginary world. Look how good it’s doing CMLL!
“But keep living in your “everyone vs Us” imaginary world. Look how good it’s doing CMLL!”
Your really a bit mad aren’t you?
Anytime there’s bad new coming from CMLL you and others seem to take great joy from it
I have not seen any joy in this blog from CMLL doing bad, sarcasm perhaps. That is a natural reaction to frustration from not having any organization or person performing near or at the top of their capabilities when you CARE for them.
The answers Rob mentions that have been/are being thrown may be for a short term and other for a long term strategy but they’re there to be grasped.
I guess the best indication that people want something to die is indiference and I don’t see that. Even if the turnout has been bad, I would not dare say there is indifference towards CMLL, otherwise there would not be the coverage there is or emotion invested either in the small or the big things and whether they give us joy or make us mad.
Oh how times have changed. Remember when people used to claim that Rob hated AAA and wanted it to die?
Sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the internet.
I agree with Cecilia, I’d be more worried if people stopped talking about CMLL and showed indifference. To me even if someone hates the direction their going, if they’re talking about it, that shows they care and are concerned.
I like how every time “The Truth” says something it’s either to start a fight and whine like a bitch about how everyone hates CMLL. Not once has he even suggested ONE WAY to fix the company he seems to love. Maybe that’s telling in itself.
@Alan: I still get those too! I kind of what to start bashing Canis Lupus so I can see if anyone can accuse me of being anti-IWRG.
I had thought CMLL had already fired Toscano after he no showed some shows?
I wonder who has to leave CMLL for them to really take notice and try to improve things? Maybe Mascara Dorada or Sombra?
No one has said they want CMLL to die. Maybe the people running might want it to die, but we’ll never know.
Be interesting to see if AAA brings in Toscano’s girlfriend too. They could even use her in an angle to bring him in, instead of just having him as “luchador sorpresa” or do a surprise run-in.
Well, since Rob has anointed me the defender of CMLL for some reason, I guess I’ll throw my two cents in here…
CMLL is doing an awful lot of things right, and is doing a ton of things wrong too. The position I took the other day which Rob seemed to shit a brick about is that I said that CMLL was pushing young talent up the cards. You can argue they are pushing the wrong guys, but compare the rosters from 2009 and the roster for 2011 and you will see the difference all the way around. CMLL parted with some talent like Wagner/Park/Warrior at that point, so that guys like Sombra/Volador/Texano could move up the card. In 2010 AAA did the same thing, which is how the Invasor group came to be in CMLL. It is a cyclical thing, and it happens in all promotions, all over the world. At some point a guy is going to be unsatisfied with his position, and see the writing on the wall that he is going to lose his spot to a younger cheaper guy. They are going to then try to cut a deal to jump the fence. CMLL has a lot of dead weight at all positions on the card, and they need to cut it. A mass exodus wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. Sure, it hurt AAA short term when they cut out valuable mid-card acts like Psicosis and Albrije, but do you miss them now that guys like Super Fly and Aero Star have their spot on the card? Probably not. Sure, it sucks for CMLL that they lost Texano, as that was a guy they should be doing everything to keep. But although Garza and Toscano were “top guys”, CMLL wasn’t really doing anything with them, and now they have their payroll off the books.
It is funny though, a guy like Shocker is notorious for personal problems/no shows, and when he does it this week, we here point out that CMLL is stupid for continuously putting him in that position. Yet, this weeks WON basically says that CMLL took him out of a big position on a show, and people point to that as a sign CMLL is falling apart. Isn’t CMLL just doing what we all just said they should be doing, and not making Shocker the centerpiece of a major show?
CMLL is doing some horrendous business right now at the gate, but so is AAA. You just see it more with CMLL because they run more shows, and they have a different business model. CMLL runs DF three times a week, GDL twice, and Puebla twice, plus spot shows. Business is obviously down, because there are plenty of pictures of empty arenas for shows – even big shows. But, the same can be said for some of these AAA tapings. AAA only really runs enough shows to fill 52 or so weeks of tv. So with some double tapings, there are probably only 30 or so legit AAA TV shows this year – some of which were poor in attendance, and some of which sold out small buildings (Like Naucalpan). It is easy for us to sit here and point out how a promotion screwed up booking something, without truly knowing the work that goes into scheduling all the talent to be in all these different places. At the same time, CMLL doesn’t give a flying fuck about continuity, and that is something that they could easily do better at with EFFORT.
If guys are looking to jump ship from CMLL for political reasons, then hopefully CMLL is starting to get the message, and makes a change. If not, things will get worse and more guys will probably try to jump. As long as CMLL owns their own buildings and has their own training factory, they will have shows. That is the difference between CMLL and AAA. AAA was supposedly in dire financial straits a year ago because the gate for a show was jacked by a gang. AAA doesn’t have the buildings, or other tangible assets like CMLL does that they can borrow against when things get really bad.
Which makes you wonder how bad things are politically there, when guys are jumping ship to work IWRG, PdM and AAA. I cannot imagine guys are getting the same paydays working those shows as they are with CMLL, unless there are some big spot/indy shows we do not know about. PdM isn’t exactly running weekly, let alone seven times a week like CMLL… and keep in mind that IWRG doesn’t exactly sell out Naucalpan, PdM runs smaller buildings, and AAA only runs limited tv (and the indy bookings are via PdM, not AAA… we don’t know yet what kind of spot shows the ex-CMLL guys are popping up on yet, do we?). I think the interesting benchmark will be if we start seeing guys jump direct to AAA, and if we see anybody work with Santo.
@Nikita: I dunno… the way I remember it was less me taking offense to your claim CMLL is pushing new guys and more me taking offense to your claim that my hard-on for AAA undercarders was blinding me to Guerrero Maya’s superpush and your implication that CMLL had a better year than AAA which was laughable.
“Isn’t CMLL just doing what we all just said they should be doing, and not making Shocker the centerpiece of a major show?”
Yes but not for the right reasons. Shocker wasn’t pulled b/c of being in no condition to perform or his past no-shows, the scuttlebutt is that he was pulled b/c CMLL just randomly decided (after 2 weeks of build) to scrap the planned tag match and stick with Panther vs Felino much like they scrapped their idea of Panther vs Negro that they had been building since September. Panther vs Felino is not the match the fans want to see nor the match CMLL seemed to promise their own talent (hence Shocker’s walkout). Panther vs Felino is CMLL for the third time on a major show this year presenting a second-rate stip match in lieu of what they had been building up and teasing their fans with for weeks/months. It’s a broken record: CMLL treats their fans like shit and will always run the cheapest match possible unless backed into a corner.
As for the last paragraph you wrote – my hunch is that a lot of promises are being made by various individuals who belong to the PdM camp and whether they come true or not remains to be seen. You’ll notice everyone who has left has yet to appear on any shows aside from the odd IWRG shows (where they get paid next to nothing). Makes you wonder if someone on the PdM end is promising some sort of new TV deal or tons of bookings starting in 2012 and the PdM group doesn’t exactly have a strong history of telling the truth. *ahem* cancer *ahem* If these promises turn out to be empty I wonder how long it’ll be before the same guys who left CMLL are knocking on the door asking to return. I already predicted Toscano would be back by April b/c his style in general doesn’t fit with the PdM main event brawling/hardcore act.
“The big shakeups (or returns) people ask about are even less likely to come as long as this management crew stays in power.”
this post is really holding up well!
You all are missing the obvious side benefit of jumping to the Perros: They might put you in an ElfYourself video:
http://elfyourself.jibjab.com/view/3TUbUUzExIUUzNl1?cmpid=ey_url
@Alan: That’s it! Where do I sign up?
Marco Corleone’s back in CMLL! You guys wasted all this time writing about how bad CMLL is and there ya’ go. Marco’s back.
I think its a solid addition and it shows that they don’t want the fans to perceive that they don’t care.
I never said CMLL had a better year than AAA… I personally enjoyed CMLL’s in ring product more, because I enjoy wrestling more than brawling, and the high flyers are a wash.
My point on GMJr was a counterpoint to the “AAA is making stars” take. My point is that CMLL may not be doing hot business right now, but they are pushing fresh talent up the card, and it should payoff later. And guys like GMJr are (in theory) going to get better quicker in CMLL than AAA, because CMLL will keep them busier… a guy like Toscano is expendable because CMLL has pushed Rush, who is similar in talent and looks, and is cheaper and fresher. He might not be as seasoned, but he is working between 5-10 shows a week, and a guy like Drago probably isn’t in AAA. That was my point.
And CMLL not delivering on the big stip goes back to what, 2004 when they made the Wagner/Canek/Universo/Rayo match, instead of Canek/Wagner? Mistico/Sombra/Felino/Volador is another good example, not to mention the various cage matches in lieu of a 1-on-1 match…
So is Macro being back put the final nail in the LLUSA coffin?
@Alfredo:
Maybe they hired him back to warn all the CMLL wrestlers about jumping to AAA since they did not met the promises they gave him. ;)
@Nikita: my guess is that Texano, Garza and Toscano know that pay is shit in both companies right now, but it’s fun to hang out with Perro Jr. so why not go to PdM/AAA?
Problem with CMLL is the booking. Their television is garbage. I just watched LATV and it’s a joke. I sometimes wonder if anyone in the office watches the television each week?
For example, I don’t believe that Panico, Paco Alonso, or anyone in the office watch C3, Fox, or Televisa tonight. At least AAA tries to put together angles and episodic television. Dorian probably watches the television show too.
“I think the interesting benchmark will be if we start seeing guys jump direct to AAA, and if we see anybody work with Santo.”
This is an important point to make clear: none of the guys jumping to Perros del Mal would be doing it if they weren’t already promised an AAA deal with it. If the Perros/AAA deal ever fell apart, you’d see the Toscano/Texano/Garza types trying to stick with AAA or go back to CMLL. I think we’ll see people jumping to AAA direclty if they’re being brought in as being as tecnicos.
“So is Macro being back put the final nail in the LLUSA coffin?”
The nails were all hammered in when they lost TV and stopped running shows.
Though, if we want to be optimistic, if they came back like how they left, Lucha Libre USA is only 1 taping every 3-4 weeks. Dark Angel has a much more busy schedule and CMLL works around that, I don’t think they’d have a problem with Marco or anyone else doing the same.
“At least AAA tries to put together angles and episodic television. Dorian probably watches the television show too.”
If he does, he watches it with the sound down.
It’s not that the CMLL people in charge don’t watch their shows, I’d guess they don’t know the shows even really exist. I’m sure they know the Galavision show, and maybe they have a faint impression of the Fox Sports one, but Paco Alonso has no idea they’re on C3 unless he randomlly flips on it some week. The only people in CMLL who know the Teleformula show exists is JCR and the 12 rotating co-hosts.
I’d also guess that, as far as the ones they know about, they’re happier that the shows are bad and hard to watch, because they figure people will not settle for watching the show on the TV and want to watch it in person instead.